Episode 465 - Georgia Man On His Diverse Ancestors And His Revolutionary Soldiers

Host Scott Fisher opens the show with David Allen Lambert, Chief Genealogist of the New England History Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org. The guys open the show talking about a woman who was being eulogized who started knocking from inside her coffin! Catch the details. Then, hoping to bring his family closer together, you won’t believe what this one man did. He should probably be arrested. Talk about “Archive in the Attic,” we’ve got another winner! And it’s amazing the roof didn’t collapse! Ellis Island has come out with a report that likely explains why many of us can’t find our peoples’ immigration records from the late 1800s. In Germany, personal belongings of some Holocaust victims are finding their way back to their families. David explains. Then, in London another multi-millennia discovery has been made. Find out what it was.

Next, Fisher begins his two-part visit with Michael Henderson of Atlanta, Georgia. As an African-American Creole from New Orleans, Michael took an early interest in his family history, taking his lines back to numerous Revolutionary soldiers and branches to several Europeans countries. Wait til you hear about the two century old document concerning his ancestor he found and was able to hold.

In the second segment with Michael Henderson, he talks about the experience of becoming Georgia’s first African-American member of the Sons of the American Revolution.

In Ask Us Anything, Fisher and David answer a follow up question to last week’s truly spooky episode, with serendipity stories of their own from the genie trail.

TRANSCRIPT

Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert

Segment 1 Episode 465

Fisher: And welcome America, to America’s Family History Show Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth on the program where we shake your family tree and watch the nuts fall out. Well, Happy Independence Day America! It is great to have you back for the show. What a great time to teach the kids about your Revolutionary War ancestors and the sacrifice that so many have made over through the last couple of centuries. Well today, in honor of that of course, we’re going to talk to Michael Henderson of Atlanta Georgia. He is an African American Créole from New Orleans, who took an early interest in his family history. Took his lines back to numerous Revolutionary soldiers and branches to several European countries, and you’re going to hear his journey and how he became the first African American member of the Sons of the American Revolution in Georgia.  So, it’s a great two-part interview coming up for you here in just a little bit. And now, it’s time to head off to Boston. Yes, back from Scotland, it’s David Allen Lambert, the Chief Genealogist of the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org. David, how are you adjusting to the time change?

David: [Yawn] I’m fine.

Fisher: Now, we need some energy. Come on, we’ve got Family Histoire news here. 

David: Yes, yes. I’ll tell you, one person who to person to have had a lot of energy, in Ecuador, a 76 year old woman who was declared dead, Fish, started knocking on her casket at the funeral.

Fisher: [Laughs]

David: Yeah, turns out she was not dead. The family is now very interested to know how she was declared dead. She’s doing a little better at the hospital. Hopefully, she’ll pull through and be able to tell the tale of coming back.

Fisher: Wow!

David: Or maybe never leaving in the first place.

Fisher: And what experience would that be like for the family sitting at the funeral and hearing the knocking from inside the box.

David: This happened a few years ago, there was a young woman who was declared at her suburban Detroit home, opened up her eyes at the funeral home just before she was about to be embalmed.

Fisher: Yes! That’s right. I remember that. It makes you wonder how many people historically have actually been buried alive.

David: Well, they’ve seen some caskets with scratch marks on the inside of the covers.

Fisher: Hmm.

David: So, probably more than we want to mention. Then, we have people who have funerals and they’re really not dead. A Belgian TikTok influencer decided it would be great to see who cared for him and had his own funeral, then flew in by helicopter to a very amazed group of family and friends.

Fisher: Yes.

David: And of course many people that are very angry at him. And I think there are better ways of finding out in people care. [Laughs]

Fisher: Yeah. He said that he wanted to teach the family a lesson and he felt that there just wasn’t enough cohesiveness among the family members. So he wanted to give them a reason to be closer. Wow! [Laughs]

David: Hey, you know, I found that I get a lot of change lying around the house, but how about a million pennies? Any chance you might have that kicking around the house?

Fisher: No, you know when I start getting any collection of pennies I get rid of them as fast as I can. They’re an annoyance.

David: Well, a German immigrant horded one million pennies during the time of him living in the United States. Well, now they’re worth ten thousand dollars. But wait, because some of them are older and in good shape, they can be worth up to $25,000, not bad for an old penny.

Fisher: Oh yeah. And this is a family that went up in the attic of dad’s house in California and found these million pennies in bags. I mean, they were super heavy. And the bank said, you know, we can’t handle that many pennies. So they’re trying to figure out what to do with it, but, there’s a story right there of an archive in the attic. I mean dad left a story right there.

David: With that many pounds of pennies, I’m surprised it didn’t end up in the cellar. [Laughs]

Fisher: Right, yes.

David: Well, you know, we always think how wonderful Elis Island is and the records that they have from the Statue of Liberty Elis Island Foundation, for free online, and of course Castle Garden predated that for New York immigration. But, did you realize that in 1897 there was a disastrous fire that destroyed all of the immigration records between 1855 and 1897?

Fisher: No, I did not know that. And I wish I had because I’ve looked for stuff in that era from Castle Garden and it just isn’t to be found.

David: Yeah, and it explains exactly what occurred, the Statue of Liberty Elis Foundation put out a post last month about it and it’s good to know this is the reason why we’re not finding people during these decades.

Fisher: That’s right, and we won’t look. We won’t waste our time.

David: You know, there’s an archive over in Germany, Fish, called the Arolsen Archives, and they have over 2500 items that were things that were stolen from people that were placed in concentration camps during World War II. And recently, the grandson of a man who had his wedding ring removed from him at Dachau has received his grandfather’s wedding ring back.

Fisher: Wow!

David: This is probably just one of many possible connections that genealogists and historians can do reconnecting family members with items that they may have thought were lost forever.

Fisher: Yeah, that’s impressive. I don’t want to say that’s a feel-good story because you’re talking about getting back possessions of somebody who was murdered. But, it is a good thing that the family got that back.

David: Very much so. In England, in London while doing some digging they found a mausoleum, a Roman mausoleum.

Fisher: Ooh!

David: Yeah, with a beautiful mosaic floor that was originally two stories tall, very impressive, probably for the elite of London at that time, or Londinium as it was once called.

Fisher: Right.

David: All that’s left now is the floor and the foundation. So, the big question is where are the Romans that were inside? So, I always say, if you’re going to build a mausoleum, at least put your name on the floor. [Laughs] 

Fisher: Right, good point. [Laughs]

David: Exactly.

Fisher: Isn’t that amazing though, over in the British Isles they are always finding things that are 1500 years old, 1000 years old, 2000 years old, going back to those eras. And even like that story we had recently about the guy who was out for the first time ever with a metal detector and found this incredible piece of jewelry from one of the ancient kings. I mean, what an amazing place that is.

David: You know, I find, these finds are not always by adults, its kids.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: It’s like, oh dad, buy me a metal detector and let’s go out and find, oh, what’s this, golden horde of Viking treasure. You know it’s like, I find bottle caps. [Laughs]

Fisher: Right! Yeah, there’s not much to be found that way. All right, great stuff Dave, thank you so much.

David: Well, remember, if you’re not an American Ancestors member, go to AmericanAncestors.org and before you check-out, use the coupon code EXTREME and save $20.

Fisher: All right, very good my friend. We’ll talk to you again at the backend of the show of course for Ask Us Anything. And coming up next, we’ll talk to Michael Henderson of Atlanta, Georgia, in a two-part visit talking about his journey, learning about the records of his African American, his Creole side and his European side that led him back to numerous Revolutionary War ancestors. As we celebrate the 4^th of July weekend, on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show in three minutes.

Segment 2 Episode 465

Host: Scott Fisher with guest Michael Henderson

Fisher: And we are back. It's America's Family History Show Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth. And of course, in recent weeks, we've been telling you a lot about our adventures at RootsTech, the world's largest family history conference in Salt Lake City, Utah. And one of the interesting people I met there was this guy, Michael Henderson from Atlanta, Georgia. He's on the line with me right now. Hi, Michael, how are you? Welcome to the show.

Michael: Well, Hi, Scott. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me today.

Fisher: Michael has an incredible story where he basically started, like most of us do with a little bit of interest, the stories from his relatives that kind of tweaked that spark early on in his life and what an adventure you've had. Let's just start at the beginning, Michael, how did you get going? What were the stories you were hearing that made you say, I got to find out more about this?

Michael: Well, actually, it started as me being a young child, having a conversation with my mom. I can remember being about nine years old and we were just basically talking about the various family members. And she mentioned her mother's maiden name, and her father's surname, but her mother's maiden name sparked an interest and part of that curiosity kind of started everything. The maiden name was Matthieu, it’s a French surname, and I wanted to know more about it. And that's where I got started right there with the being curious.

Fisher: It's an African American with a French name. That's kind of a different path, isn't it?

Michael: Well, that right there was part of a whole exploration of Mom, where did this name come from? And how did the family get the surname, because it was on her mother's side of the family. I've been successful with being able to document and trace my ancestry back to a group of individuals known as Créole here in Louisiana. And so I asked her, I said, you know, where did the name come from? Where was it derived? And I asked her how to spell it because it didn't sound like the normal English version of Matthew. And we got into this discussion and she mentioned to me that he realized that the family was French Créole and they had this French ancestry of ancestral connection. But that was about all she knew she didn't know the particulars. But what she told me was that when she was only six years old, her mother passed away. And so my mom, as a six year old child, and I, as a nine year old child, I realized then there was a special moment for me. So that was the genesis of it starting. But all throughout my life I’ve been one of the curious ones in the family.

Fisher: Absolutely. And you mentioned, by the way, here in Louisiana, because you're visiting New Orleans, you're visiting your hometown right now with the family. And you're lucky because you’ve got both of your folks still with you. So, I would imagine you're still collecting stories, yes?

Michael: Last night we had a family gathering here, and some of the cousins came over that I hadn’t seen in many, many years. I'm the oldest of eight. But I have some other cousins that came over to see my wife and I. And we just got to talking and some of the stories started coming out. And I told my wife, I said pay close attention because this is where you get the cream, the gems. And you're going to find out some additional information I haven't even told you yet. So just keep your ears open and be the fly on the wall.

Fisher: You were talking in your book, you've written a fabulous book by the way. Incredibly well written for this type of book, I will say right now. Because a lot of people, you know, if they're genealogists they can get into the book. But I think this book is so accessible to anybody who might have an interest in this, and just the history and the sleuthing side of it. Because you really took this thing back, interviewing cousins you didn't even know about, talk about this unique cousin that your mother introduced you to and what she shared with you.

Michael: As I mentioned earlier, my mom and I had a discussion about the family and the origin and the family. And when she told me that when she lost her mother, at six years old, she being six she said, well, I have some other cousins and some family members. I'm going to take you over and we'll have a conversation with that person. And it just so happened, it was the family historian unbeknownst to me at the time. And so she invited us over to her home. And we sat down for a few minutes. And I shared as much as I knew about the family because I had started gathering and collecting. This is much later in life. I told her all of the things that I was interested in learning, this is what I had uncovered, and was there anything else she could provide me? She gave me three items. She gave me a wildlife diagram of some family members. And it was basically a bunch of names generations back. She gave me a picture of my mother's, mother's parents, which was my mother's grandparents.

Fisher: Wow.

Michael: And she gave me a piece of oral history. Now all of this came about through this discussion, interviewing this person over a period of a few minutes as we were communicating. But the piece of information was a bit of oral history that I guess she held close to her heart because, again, it's the kind of stuff that you don't just talk about openly to anyone and it was that part of the family secret that I learned later on, but they wouldn't allow us to use daddy’s last name. And this was the progenitor of this particular family line that I stumbled upon. And she said, she told me she said, you know, cher, you're about to jump into some areas that the family don't talk about very much. And so be careful as you're asking various people, you know, bits and pieces of information that you've come across. But I see the process in which you're going about you're really serious about this. But so take this along, and maybe this can help you further your research. Basically, that's what kind of propelled me to, to dig even deeper to put the names together, to find the documentation, to clarify some of the understanding or misunderstanding that came about, and the result turned out by discovery of a fourth generation grandparents, male and female, who lived during the French and Spanish colonial periods in Louisiana's history.

Fisher: So you have quite a mix, then between the Créoles, the Europeans that came in, and the black slaves and free blacks as well right? Talk a little about that, because I know you have a very unique story concerning one of your 18th century ancestors.

Michael: Well, this story itself evolved into a fourth generation grandmother name Agnes. She was born during the French period of Louisiana's history from 1699 to 1783. She was born about 1758, in St. Charles Paris, about 30 miles north of the city of New Orleans, and her relationship with a Frenchman who was born in Marseille, France, wound up in Spanish Louisiana, around between 1765 and 77. They formed this relationship in the city of New Orleans, and he actually assisted her with gaining her freedom. She was actually manumitted December 16, 1779, after having gone through a year long court battle with her former owner. And it turned out that the Spanish colonial governor, Bernardo de Gálvez had to sign her Manumission document because they weren't able to come to an agreement. But Spain allowed enslaved individuals to self purchase themselves. And Agnes came up with her money, the resources based on the amount that was it, she came up with that value, and she was able to get her freedom with a signature of Bernardo de Gálvez in our French consort.

Fisher: But to me the amazing thing was you actually got to find and hold that document.

Michael: Yes, indeed, it was a Manumission document discovered at the New Orleans Notarial Archives here in the city of New Orleans. The actual document is still in the possession of the Notarial Archives. So I was able to get a xerox copy of it and it's about an eight page document because there was some process there, the process that they had to go through, a tribunal that was set up because her former owner would not allow her to go free. That document itself held in it pages, some interesting dynamics of who all was involved and what actually happened in the final analysis. So, that was one of four documents that actually helped me to really understand the story itself.

Fisher: Wow, what an incredible journey this has been! How has this affected some of your other cousins, the people that you're getting to know better as you age?

Michael: Well, the thing about it, all of them are finding it to be very interesting. This particular cousin that became the kind of like the keeper of the records and seals and things like that, she held this information close to her heart, because it was a badge of shame. Agnes and Mathieu were not able to marry, because of the law of the time, the black codes, codes of the law. They were forbidden to marry. So, what Agnes did was, she took his first name, Mathieu, and used it as a family surname. That's how the name came into existence as a derived name locally. But the family surname is Devaux, which was from Marseille, France. And the family didn't know that. All they knew that there was a relationship between this enslaved woman and this white European and that was it. And that kept on for five generations till this nine year old kid came along and asked his mother, why is the name spelled, Mathieu? Where did the name come from? And again, I was able to uncover the essence of the story itself. But what was most interested about that entire journey and discovery was what else I found. This guy, Mathieu who helped her gain her freedom had a unique part to play in that whole story. I also found that he was part of the local militia in the city of New Orleans, serving under the command of the Spanish colonial governor, Bernardo de Gálvez who happened to turn out to be a patriot of the American Revolution. So, now I needed to figure out a way to tell the story, how I was going to educate the reading audience that was going to read my story, to give an appreciation about Louisiana history, American history and how my two ancestors came together.

Fisher: And yet, when I read your book, I hear how much you hated history when you were a kid, just as I did! It was the family history that got me interested in history in general.

Michael: That's what I tried to express now as I talked to various groups that, if you want to get a kid really interested in American history, make them connect American history to their own history. Let them learn about their own individual history and work back to the period of time, if they're fortunate enough to do, so that that history comes alive to them. I was like all other kids, I basically studied the history, made the grade, but I didn't really care for, you know, memorizing a lot of facts and figures.

Fisher: Sure.

Michael: It wasn't until I got older, where I started to really appreciate the value of knowing one's history. And that's what I tried to capture in my book, Got Proof! A Genealogical Journey Through The Use of Documentation, and how that all came about.

Fisher: And as a naval officer, of course, this had to really kind of fill you with a little bit of pride to find that you had ancestors who were part of the revolution, yes?

Michael: That was also a Genesis that as I got older, I wanted to really trace back my military lineage in terms of the males in my family who served in the military. My father served in Korea, his father served in World War I. I came across several ancestors that fought during the Civil War. One I came across that actually served in the Confederacy, then there were several that served at the Battle of New Orleans under General Jackson following the first battalion Free Man of Color.

Fisher: We're going to find out more about this and talk about your revolutionary ancestors and where that led you, coming up when we return in five minutes on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show.

Segment 3 Episode 465

Host: Scott Fisher with guest Michael Henderson

Fisher: And we are back! It's America's Family History Show, Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth. And on the phone with me right now from his hometown in New Orleans, Louisiana. It's Michael Henderson. He's the author of the book, Got Proof! My Genealogical Journey through the use of Documentation. This is an incredible story for somebody who is African American. And as we all know, Mike, that is just a very difficult path for a lot of researchers, especially when you get back beyond 1870 and the manumission of the slaves at that time. But you have gotten back well into the 18th century through your Creole lines, and have found how many revolutionary ancestors?

Michael: Hello, Scott. I’ve identified 10 Revolutionary War ancestors that served under the Spanish colonial governor, Bernardo de Gálvez, and I've actually documented through the lineage society, the national society Sons of American Revolution, six. I'm working on four others as I gather the documentation and finding the necessary records to compile that information.

Fisher: And so how's that been working out for? You mentioned the SAR. Historically, you kind of made your own mark in Georgia, which is where you live now joining the SAR, the first African American in your chapter, yes, or in the entire state?

Michael: Actually, I'm the first African American, the state of Georgia, the society in Georgia. It was not by accident. I basically found out when I was getting inducted that I was going to become the first African American of the Georgia society. And it was all because I happened to be living in Georgia at the time. My ancestors from Louisiana, served in Louisiana, and I was really trying to get into a chapter in Louisiana. But I was advised that locally to join a local chapter where I could participate in the various events that goes on. So, I'm happy to say that that happened all of a sudden. And I'm proud to be the first one to become a member.

Fisher: Well, I'm sure a lot of people would wonder how were you received in the Deep South, being the first?

Michael: It was open arms. I haven't had any problems. It’s like everyone that get into an organization like the SAR, it's through documented evidence, documenting your ancestral lineage back to a patron of the American Revolution. I did, just like everyone else. As far as being the first, again, there was a lot of curiosity of how could I have done this? Who was the person? Everybody automatically assume my ancestor was an African American patron of the American Revolution. It just so happens that all six of my ancestors that have been documented are white Europeans. So, that in itself was a challenge of trying to put that story together through documented evidence, which I was successful in being able to do.

Fisher: That's incredible! Tell us about some of the ancestors.

Michael: Well, I have this one ancestor from Marseille, France, who arrived in Louisiana and happened to be a merchant. Came to Louisiana during the Spanish period and wound up in the Spanish militia. I've located a French Canadian ancestor who came down from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Born in Montreal, came down to Louisiana, and I happen to find him in one of the militias out in St. John the Baptist Parish out about 30 miles north of the city of New Orleans. Two other ancestors that were locally born in St. Charles Parish, one a Father and the Son were both old enough at the time. They are of a Swedish, German Swedish extraction. Their father was the German Swedish officer and the son, both sons were officers also. And they served in the local St. Charles militia. There is a German ancestor that I came across also that I was able to document through this particular lineage. And so, when I found my bloodline connection to these persons and their participation in service on the Spanish colonial governor, Bernardo de Gálvez, I went forth to document that and submitted that to the Sons of the American Revolution as a third party adjudicator. And everything checked out in terms of my bloodline. And I wanted to get them recognized for their service and participation.

Fisher: Absolutely. And you know, you're absolutely right. One of the things that I enjoy about being a member of the Sons of the American Revolution is that you get that third party to validate your research. And I've done that with the Society of Mayflower Descendants as well, because a lot of people can make claims that pass down the family, and then people say, “Well, they say that we have ancestors who did this or do that.” But when they can actually prove that and make that proof stick, then that's a really valuable thing to have as far as passing down your family history with confidence that what you're giving them is absolutely true.

Michael: That is so correct. That, and one of the things for me as an African American, being able to connect my ancestor to the American Revolution through the service of ancestors who served outside the 13 colonies, it gives me a chance as a living memorial to those ancestors to be able to speak on their behalf in terms of acknowledging the fact that they were there, they participated. And this was the service and contributions to this country that our family provided to make this America the way it is today. It's almost a multiracial, multicultural, and it has given me a sense of pride and understanding that how valuable that is from an inspiration standpoint.

Fisher: And then in time you became the leader of your group there in Georgia, yes?

Michael: Yes, the local chapter that I joined, the Button Gwinnett Chapter of the Georgia society, Sons of the American Revolution, couple of years later, I assumed the role of the President of that particular chapter. Another first, because again, being the first African American in the state, and again, the first African American male to assume a position as a chapter president. So again, each one of the things that I do within the organization, it becomes a first.

Fisher: Yes. [Laughs]

Michael: Because again, I’m the only one.

Fisher: Absolutely. And you mentioned before the break that you had an ancestor that fought with Andrew Jackson in New Orleans. Of course, the Battle of New Orleans was, boy, a hallmark in the War of 1812. And in fact, I had an ancestor that was born on the anniversary, the 18th anniversary of the Battle of New Orleans, so they named him Andrew Jackson Fisher.

Michael: Wow, fantastic!

Fisher: Yeah, it was fun to figure that out when I looked at the dates and went, “Oh, I get it. Okay.” So tell us about that ancestor, and what role he played in that battle.

Michael: His name was Louis Devaux Mathieu, and he was the son of Mathieu Devaux. And as you mentioned, the Battle of New Orleans and a war of 1812 was pretty much the second revolution that the United States participated against Great Britain and it culminated here in New Orleans. Matter of fact, in 2015, we celebrated the bicentennial of that battle. And I learned of Louis's participation as being part of the first battalion of free men of color, company of about 250 to almost 260 men. One or two companies the first and second battalion of free men of color was formed in the city of New Orleans itself. And these men, these men of color are all free, participated under the command of General Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans, right there, right down the road about eight miles from where I live. That was an interesting discovery. So I had to go ahead and document him. And that too, led to my being eligible for another lineage society, The General Society of the War of 1812, when I submitted my documentation on that, on behalf of him also.

Fisher: Well, the book is called, Got Proof! My Genealogical Journey through the use of Documentation. He's Michael Henderson. Where can they get the book, Mike?

Michael: Well, the book is sold on Amazon.com. It can also be purchased on my website at MichaelNHenderson.com.

Fisher: I mean, it's a great work, very inspiring too. Amazing things that you've accomplished over how many years now?

Michael: It's been over about 30 years of research, and I'm still in the path of researching it. And research never ends. But what this book has allowed me to do is actually get to the end point where I was able to give the journey, the discovery and the results achieved. So, the journey continues on, but this was the result of one particular path that I went down.

Fisher: This is a great exclamation point on Black History Month, Michael. Thanks so much for your time. Congratulations on the book! I mean, it really is an incredibly well written book and very inspiring, tough to put down and a good read, too. It's not really overly long. I think people will really enjoy it.

Michael: Well, thank you very much for that. And thank you also for having me on your show today.

Fisher: Hey, it's great. Thanks so much. And coming up next, David Allen Lambert returns as we answer your questions on Ask Us Anything on Extreme Genes America's Family History Show in three minutes.

Segment 4 Episode 465

Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert

Fisher: All right, we're back for Ask Us Anything on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here your Radio Roots Sleuth. David Allen Lambert is back over there in Boston, Massachusetts. And David, our first question comes from James in Boynton Beach, Florida. And he says, “Guys, last week you shared the weird stories of those cousins who dug up Fisher’s ancestors.” Yes, they did.

David: Oh yes.

Fisher: “I've had some weird things happen before, too. Have you? James.” Okay, you want to go first, Dave or you want me?

David: I'll tell you mine, because mine's about 40 plus years old.

Fisher: Okay.

David: It's going to probably take me a little bit to recollect it. But it kind of goes like this, when my grandmother died, I inherited her old Smith Corona typewriter. And what did I do on it? As a 12 year old, I typed up genealogy stuff. So, one summer, I'm up in my room typing away, it's late at night and my cousin had been sleeping over from New Hampshire and he was in the front room and sound asleep, younger cousin. I hear footsteps coming up the stairs. I have a hundred year old house, so stairs creak as they may, and I'm like, hello. And the response was nothing. My sister was out. My father was working. So, it was just my mother and my cousin and me. Then I heard the attic door, which is adjacent to where my door is, open, and when it swings open, it blocks my door. I heard it unhinge, like flick the hook, door knob turn, and then swing and hitting my door. I’m like, that's weird. Then I heard the steps of someone going up the attic stairs, because it went above my closet right where I was typing. Alright, at this point, I got up and said, “Why on earth is my mother going up into the attic?” So I went around, pushed the door, walked up the attic stairs and I yell, “Ma, why are you up in the attic with the lights off?” And there and then, my mother from the first floor said, “Don't yell! You're going to wake up your cousin who's down here.”

Fisher: [Laughs]

David: I don't remember hitting the last step, Fish.

Fisher: [Laughs]

David: Now, here's the thing. A month and a half before, I had got my brother's old bedroom and I started to make my genealogy archive for my files and stuff upstairs. I like to think that, well, maybe someone was visiting something they had before.

Fisher: Wow, that's a good one!

David: Yeah.

Fisher: So here's what happened to my wife and me. We were in Indiana, going through an old cemetery. And this old cemetery ended with a loop, right? Because they would bring the bodies in and a horse and buggy, and they'd have to turn around, there's no reverse on those things.

David: For sure.

Fisher: And it was a Sunday afternoon in July of 1982 and my wife and I are out there, we come around with her uncle, and we found all these people from the Stout family that she descends from. And Julie's writing all the names down there, like four dozen of them there. And then I went up to an older section of the cemetery to look for who the original couple might be that brought them all there. And while I'm up there, Julie and her uncle wrap up, and they take the car around and they're facing out right where the road splits. I had asked Bob about this one woman whose tombstone we'd run into, it said “Born 1884 –“ there was no death date there. And at that point, that's a person who would have been 98 years old. And I'm thinking, “Well, if they're still around, maybe they could tell us who all these folks were.” So, he said he had known her as a young man, but didn't know what happened to her. So, as we're going through things up on the hill now, I found that original pioneer that brought the family name to the area. And as we're talking, this car pulls up and it's being blocked by Julie's uncle's car. And guess who's in the car?

David: The 98 year old?

Fisher: Yeah, the 98 year old lady with her 75 year old daughter driving. She was the family historian. She knew all the answers. She knew how all of Julie's lines connected, going back to the person I had just found on the hillside.

David: That’s amazing!

Fisher: That's pretty crazy stuff. So those are a couple of things.

David: Its actually perfect timing.

Fisher: Yeah. Well, yes, she had put a vase on the husband's grave six weeks earlier and chose that moment to come and get it. So, great question, James. These things happen all the time. We got another question coming up next when we return on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show in three minutes.

Segment 5 Episode 465

Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert

Fisher: All right back at it on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. Fish here, David there. And during the break, David and I were talking, it's like okay, we've gotten more serendipity kinds of stories to talk about, an answer to James's question, so we'll forego one of the other ones this time. What else happened to you, David?

David: What do you know? I love going on geological field trips. Sometimes my spouse doesn't, especially when I go in the car and we were driving and I stop and look at a 19th century map now with the modern roads on it. This is long before the internet was avail. We were looking for a cemetery. Well, looked like the road disappeared, came like a logging road. So before I brought my car in to blow out the shocks out of it, I pulled into the house at the end of this road to some old farmhouse and I walk up and I'm about to knock on the knocker, and I saw it engraved on the knocker the last name, Pitman. That was the family, Fish that I was looking for at the cemetery. My Pitman family.

Fisher: Okay.

David: The lady inside was in her high 80s. And she says, “Oh, you're looking for the Pitman cemetery. Well, my husband's buried there and so is his father, his grandfather, his great grandfather, his great, great grandfather and his third great. But I can't remember who was the first one buried there.” Come on in the house. Doesn't know me from Adam.

Fisher: Right.

David: “Come on in the house sit down.” An old, old farmhouse, probably built about 1820, 1830. And she brings out this hand sewn genealogy and says, “Well, this was written by my husband's great grandmother. And this might be of interest for you to look at.” And I found my ancestor in it. And it turns out, it was written by his sister in law in the 1880s.

Fisher: Oh wow!

David: He helped build the house I was now standing in. And she went up to the cemetery in the back of the car. And she said, “Drive slow. There's more potholes up here than in Massachusetts.” But we found all the graves. I stayed very friendly with her. And when she died, her son invited me to come up and stay at the house, because he now lived there. And I have to stay in the house that my ancestor built 180 years ago with his brother and look at all sorts of family Bibles and family pictures and quilts and spinning wheels.

Fisher: Wow, its Disneyland! That's what that is.

David: And powder horn owned by my ancestor from the revolutionary War.

Fisher: Oh! [Laughs]

David: Which I'm hoping to get someday.

Fisher: Wow!

David: That's great stuff. All right, so here's another one. We were over in Yarm, Yorkshire, England, Northern Yorkshire, which is where the Fishers came from. And we were wandering around the town and across the way in another little village and their cemetery. So, I went to look inside a chapel while my wife was hanging out outside. And this couple came up. And they had just moved to Yarm the previous year, built a brand new house. And they invited us over for dinner. Oh, and this guy wanted to show me every aspect of this house and I'm thinking, okay, I've got to get back to the bed and breakfast. It's getting dark. We had the dinner. And he says, “Oh, I must show you my American jazz collection.” And I told him that my dad had actually done the music arrangements for a Gershwin album the year before he died in 1971. And I described it to him and he goes through his little box and pulls it out and says, “You mean this one?” He says, “There probably isn't another copy of this in all of England. I found it a little store at the White Cliffs of Dover.” I'm like, “What?!” And then he takes the thing, puts it on the turntable and drops the needle on, “Someone to Watch Over Me,” with Leslie Uggams. The song we played at my dad's funeral. How freaky is that? Yeah.

David: Wow!

Fisher: I know. I know.

David: Wow!

Fisher: I wish we had more time to talk about it, but we can't! So, there you go. There's a bunch of serendipity stories just involving David and me. There are so many others out there as well. By the way, check out Henry Z. Jones, Hank Jones’ book called, Psychic Roots for many, many more. Great stuff David, thanks so much. Great to have you back home!

David: And thank you, sir, and I will talk to you next week.

Fisher: All right, thanks so much. And thank you for listening this week. If you missed any of the show, of course you want to catch the podcast version. You can find it all over the place on TuneIn Radio, iHeart Radio, ExtremeGenes.com, Spotify. You name it, we're there. Talk to you again next week. And remember, as far as everyone knows, we're a nice normal family!