Episode 467 - Tenth Anniversary Show! Diahan Southard on the History of Genetic Genealogy & Where We’re Going Next

Host Scott Fisher opens the show with David Allen Lambert, Chief Genealogist of the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org. The guys open the show talking about the first ten years of Extreme Genes. David then reveals more good news for Irish researchers. Next, in Family Histoire News, Stanford University has developed a new DNA analysis technique for African-American research. Then, a Kentucky cornfield has yielded some 700 gold Civil War era coins, and they’re still coming out the ground! David has more. The last slave ship, the Clotilda, is back in the news again. David shares details. And finally, this week marks the 50^th anniversary of the fire in St. Louis that destroyed over 750 million records of 20^th century US Army and Air Force service people. Fisher and David talk about the impact and how many of the records are being reconstructed.

Next, Your DNA Guide, Diahan Southard, joins the show to discuss the history of genetic genealogy over the last quarter century. She was there at the beginning. Diahan talks about how she got started, and in the second segment discusses what is still to come. (Hint: It’s very cool!)

David then returns for two more questions with Fisher on Ask Us Anything.

That’s all this week on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show!

TRANSCRIPT

 Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert

Segment 1 Episode 467

Fisher: And welcome America to America's Family History Show, Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here your Radio Roots Sleuth on the program where we shake your family tree, and watch the nuts fall out! It's our 10th anniversary show, I cannot believe it! And I'm so excited today to have as a guest for two segments, your DNA guide, Diahan Southard. And Diahan is going to be talking about the history of genetic genealogy, how she got started in all this, because she started like before, almost anybody you can think of. And then we're going to talk about where are we going? What's still to come? Apparently, there's a lot more and you're going to find out about that a little later on in about ten minutes with Diahan. Right now, it's time to head out to Boston where my good friend David Allen Lambert is standing by, the Chief Genealogist at the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org. Hello, David.

David: Happy decennial anniversary, my friend.

Fisher: Can you believe it? I mean, ten years! We started this thing in July of 2013, on a single radio station in Salt Lake City, Utah. And then we went national in January of 2014. And now we're on in markets like yours in Boston and Washington and Atlanta and Dallas and still Salt Lake and a lot of other markets as well. What a ride! And gee, I can only thank everybody who's been so supportive of all this from the beginning. It's just amazing! The following just continues to grow.

David: You know, I've had the honor of being on the show off and on now for eight years.

Fisher: Oh yeah.

David: Yeah.

Fisher: Mostly on Dave. [Laughs]

David: That's true. Well, you know, there's times I've been kind of off.

Fisher: [Laughs]

David: But glad to be on with Family Histoire News anytime you need it.

Fisher: Well, that's great. Let's get started on that then. What do we have to begin with?

David: Well, a combination of the efforts of the Public Record Office in Northern Ireland and our friends at Ancestry now have online for free 3.2 million names indexed from the Northern Ireland valuation records from the period of 1864 to 1933. And as we all know, Irish research is so hard to do anyways, because of the fires. And to have this online, it's going to make a lot of breakthroughs for genealogists doing Ireland. Thank you PRONI and Ancestry.

Fisher: Well, and you know, the Irish government is recognizing what a boon genealogy is to tourism there, so they're getting behind it. And a lot of good things are happening in Ireland.

David: Stanford University researchers have undertaken some research on African American ancestry. They are now doing research that takes traditional measurements of genetic ancestry and yields new investigations as to European percentage and African ancestry, a fascinating story and available from Stanford.edu. Well, you know, I think there's a lot of fun when people go out with metal detectors. But how about if you're just planting in your field, and you find a gold coin? That's pretty lucky.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: Maybe two, even more lucky. How about 700 and still finding them? A man in Kentucky, as found a hoard of pre 1863 gold coins from $20 Gold Pieces worth six figures, all the way to $1 gold coins. It's amazing! 95% of these, Fish, are gold.

Fisher: Yeah. And he's still digging them up. This is the thing. And he's putting up videos of him just pulling them out of the ground. The coin collecting world, their heads are exploding right now. [Laughs] They don't know what to make of this.

David: You know, it's typical during the Civil War that families would bury fortunes.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: With the idea that they'd go back, because maybe they had to flee, because the Union forces were coming or they're worried about neighbors burning down their farms, etc. So, it’s an interesting bit of history. But wow! I think he paid for his property.

Fisher: Yeah, I think that's covered.

David: You know, Fish, in the past, we've talked about that Clotilda that was discovered in Alabama that was the last slave ship. It was a schooner that carried over 110 men, women and children. And they’re bringing up pieces of it right now. Pieces of wood that have been preserved and also metal are being displayed at the Africa Town Heritage House.

Fisher: Yeah, this is an interesting thing, because they've got to bring this out very gently or it all just falls apart, because it's been soaking for, what, 160 years, something like that.

David: Um hmm.

Fisher: So, there's a real technique to this to preserving this thing. We'll see how much of it they can bring out and successfully restore.

David: You know, it goes to show you that there's treasure in many ways. The 700 gold coins is treasure, but this is also historical treasure.

Fisher: Oh yeah.

David: And we lost a lot of treasure 50 years ago, when this fire took place in St. Louis, Missouri, July 12 1973. 17 million documents went up in smoke.

Fisher: Wow! Yeah, there's a great article on that right now from Wired.com. And they talk about the day that it happened. They actually interview people who were interning there at the time and actually found the thing before it really got out of control. But nonetheless, there was so much material in there that it just kept going and going. It took them days to get the fire out. And this was tragedy that still echoes to today, because there were 17,500,000 records of service people, mostly soldiers and air force people from the 20th century up to that point, 1973. So, it covered like all the way from like, right after the Spanish American War all the way through World War II, all the way through Vietnam. And it's been a disaster ever since. But it talks about the number of people that they have on board who are working to restore a lot of these documents whenever they requested. I mean, they have so many of them. They obviously aren't just going to work on all of them only when they're requested. So, what they're doing, they've got this new technology that can actually take a piece of blackened paper and get the information out of it. Of course, a lot of that was thrown away back in the day, because nobody ever imagined that any of those things were restorable, but they are. Terrible loss, especially for those service people who were trying to get the benefits they so justly deserved.

David: We're so lucky that there were some records preserved on the form, the DD214 that adjutant general officers have held, because most of us wouldn't be able to research our World War I, World War II related family members after they're gone, because, plus the family kept the papers and St. Louis lost most of them.

Fisher: Exactly.

David: It's great they were able to preserve these and move forward. And that is almost like what's going on in Ireland with the Four Courts where they're trying to recreate what was there from the fires of 1922.

Fisher: Interesting.

David: Well, that's all I have from Beantown this week for you, but I invite people to join American Ancestors and save $20 if you use the coupon code “Extreme” on AmericanAncestors.org.

Fisher: All right, David, catch it the back end of the show for Ask Us Anything. And coming up next on our 10th anniversary show, your DNA guide, Diahan Southard talking about the history of genetic genealogy, how did we get to where we are today? And also, where are we going? And a lot more, coming up next when we return in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show.

Segment 2 Episode 467

Host: Scott Fisher with guest Diahan Southard

Fisher: Hey, welcome back to America's Family History Show Extreme Genes and ExtremeGenes.com. It is our 10th anniversary show. And it's just only fitting that I have my good friend, Your DNA Guide coming on the show today. Diahan Southard. Diahan, welcome back! It's great to have you.

Diahan: Scott, I am so excited to be a part of this anniversary episode. What an honor. Thank you for inviting me.

Fisher: Well, I'm just delighted to have you on and you know, when we think of Extreme Genes we think of DNA, and this show is kind of ridden the wave, the tsunami of DNA testing over the years, and I thought it only made sense to talk to you today. And you know, you think back to the beginning of all this. I mean the DNA studies for genealogy long precedes Extreme Genes. I was just wondering, how did you get started?

Diahan: Yeah, it's actually such a fun story. You can trace this actually all the way back to my high school English teacher.

Fisher: Really?

Diahan: Yes. So my high school English teacher told all of us graduating seniors, that the best thing we can do in college is to find a professor who's researching something we were interested in and get involved. So, I tell that to all the graduating seniors that I know also because it literally has shaped the path of my entire life that one piece of advice.

Fisher: Wow.

Diahan: Yeah. I wanted to do something with DNA and genetics. That's always been my interest. And so I was at Brigham Young University. They didn't have a specific genetics department at that time. So I went to the microbiology department, I asked the secretary for a list of the professors and the department and the things they were researching, which she easily produced. And I looked down the list and it said, like, bacteria and viruses and I was like, boring, boring.

Fisher: [Laughs] No, no, no.

Diahan: And then it said Dr. Scott Woodward, Archaeogenetics.

Fisher: Hmm.

Diahan: I was like, okay, this is definitely worth investigating. So she gave me his office location. I walked down the hallway and knocked on the door and said, “Hey, how can I get involved? How can I help? What are you doing?” And Scott, as we call him now, of course, that was hard for me. I called him Dr. Woodward for so many years.

Fisher: I'll bet I'll bet and he's been on this show many times because he's such a pioneer in this field.

Diahan: Yes. Right. So, I joined his lab in 1998. And in 1998, his lab was involved in identifying the mitochondrial DNA of some ancient Egyptian mummies that were buried in a cemetery outside of Cairo, Egypt. But the cemetery was not near any towns. No one knew who these people were. And there were hundreds of burials.

Fisher: Really? And they did back how far?

Diahan: You know, I don't remember. Long enough, long enough that we were focused on teeth and femur bones.

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: So, a group went over excavated, brought back the bones and that was my job in the lab to do the mitochondrial DNA typing, like figure out what their mitochondrial DNA profile was. And by doing that, we could see at least maternal relationships of individuals within the cemetery. We could see that groups of people had been buried together who were related. We could see mother child buried together, things like that. But the problem was we could kind of see again how people within the cemetery were related to each other. But we still had no idea who they were. And it really was at this point that Dr. Woodward started to spread this word. Like if we had a worldwide database of genetic information, we would be able to quickly and easily identify who these people were.

Fisher: You mean where they were from, right?

Diahan: Yeah.

Fisher: Okay.

Diahan: Where they were from, who their modern day descendants were right.

Fisher: Okay. Yeah.

Diahan: And so that was his idea. And this idea eventually spread to Mr. James Sorensen, who was a Utah philanthropist. And he thought, well, okay, let's build it then. This database doesn't exist. Let's make it.

Fisher: So, is this where the blood draw thing came in? Because I was part of this in like, 1999, my wife and I both had our blood drawn, because Dr. Woodward wanted to collect something like 100,000 samples from around the world. And I don't think he ever got that far with it because much earlier than the time that he could achieve that number, he proved that this whole idea would work.

Diahan: Absolutely, yes. So that's what I did. While other college students were spending their weekends partying, I was traveling to nowhere Alabama and giving a lecture to whoever would show up about this process and about how this could work. And after I convinced them, they lined up and actually gave blood, they stuck out their arms, we hired phlebotomist, and they gave blood and their four generation family trees as you and your wife did.

Fisher: Yes.

Diahan: And then I would pack those blood samples into a cooler. I would hop back on the plane and come back to the lab on Monday and start working. And we would extract the DNA from the blood samples and start this process of typing them.

Fisher: Wow.

Diahan: Yeah, that's what I did in college.

Fisher: And that ultimately spread to the big four now I guess you would call it Family Tree DNA and Ancestry, and now My Heritage and of course, 23andMe.

 Diahan: Exactly, yeah.

Fisher: It’s amazing.

Diahan: So, Family Tree DNA, yeah, Family Tree DNA started in that same year in 1999. They essentially grew up at the same time as the Sorenson Foundation. So Sorenson Foundation's goal, again, was to create this worldwide database so that we could answer all kinds of archaeology and those kinds of questions. Like, it was a much more research based project. Whereas Family Tree DNA of course was founded of course by two men who were genealogists and wanted to harness the power of this technology, namely, Y-DNA in their own family history. So really, in 1999, the first two genetic genealogy companies were born.

Fisher: Isn't that fascinating. And you know, you think about that in the beginning, as far as we genealogists went, it was Y-DNA that was pretty much it in the early days. And that was what Ancestry did. I think most people don't even remember when Ancestry did Y-DNA testing in the beginning, but when autosomal came along, it changed everything. And for people who aren't familiar with that the Y-DNA follows the DNA that is passed along, father to son, father to son on ad infinitum. But the autosomal DNA covers from the father's side, all the way over to the mother's side, and everything in between, which is why it's so powerful for us today.

Diahan: Right.

Fisher: And so now we have progressed to a point where in the 2000s, a lot of things started to change.

Diahan: They did it was an explosion really of information. So 2007 saw our first autosomal DNA test being offered by 23andMe, and the other companies quickly followed with similar tests. And that's really where this all really started and kind of blew wide open as far as the possibilities for family history to incorporate DNA into its everyday life, essentially.

Fisher: And at what point did you become Your DNA Guide? Was it pretty early here?

Diahan: Yeah, so I worked for the Sorenson Foundation up until they were sold to Ancestry. So the Sorenson Foundation, a database we had created became the foundation of Ancestry’s product. And so that kind of launched them but at that same time, I was a young mom, I had kids at home, I wasn't in a position where I wanted to work full time. And so I didn't go to work for Ancestry, and I kind of thought, well, that was a fun ride. I'll be done now. And so, my two good friends who also worked for Sorenson, Ugo Perego, and Anna Swain suggested that the three of us start a DNA education company, because by this point, there were enough tests out that people needed help, you know, understanding how to use these results. And so I said, Okay, that's fine. And so, for a couple of years, the three of us worked together, but Anna quickly got a job for Ancestry and became very involved in building their product. Ugo lived in Italy and had another full time job. And anyway, that kind of just stopped working for us. So, it really was in 2014 when I started Your DNA Guide.

Fisher: Wow. And I'm thinking about this because I was working with people with DNA testing as early as 2010-2012. But at that time, it was really hard to find the key DNA matches because just not enough people had tested at that point. And you remember the big celebration when Ancestry announced that they had their 1 millionth test completed?

Diahan: Yes.

Fisher: It wasn't that long ago, it seems.

Diahan: Well, it wasn't. And it seems like the tide just kept building, you know, really quickly after that as well with all the companies.

Fisher: It really did. And I think most of the estimates right now are somewhere around 21 million for Ancestry, which is far and above anybody else. And of course, there's a lot of overlap, because there are many of us who have tested at all the companies, me being among them, and I would imagine you to, and then you can talk also about the idea here that we went from archeology to genealogy and then to the criminal world too with DNA all using the same technology.

Diahan: Absolutely. It's that amazing?

Fisher: It is.

Diahan: We started with one purpose. And you can see how the same technology can then be harnessed and used for a lot of different kinds of purposes. It crosses platforms and genres. And, yeah, it really morphs into something you never could have imagined it would have become.

Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think now about 2015-2016, it got easier and easier by that time to start getting the key matches that people needed to make the breakthroughs they were looking for.

Diahan: Yeah, they call that kind of the inflection point, right. It's where the technology became so much easier to use, because of the size of the database that so many more people were then having success with the technology and publicizing that success, which then gave other people encouragement, “oh, wow, this really works, maybe I should try it” which means they took a DNA test, which means the database grows, which means it's even easier to make the discovery.

Fisher: That's true. Now, if we could just get them to put trees together with their DNA, we'll all be very happy.

Diahan: We will get there.

Fisher: But you know Y DNA didn't go away. Mitochondrial didn't go away. And we're still seeing those all being used in combination with autosomal to make discoveries as well, even today?

Diahan: Absolutely. I think people often ignore the power of y and mitochondrial DNA, especially in combination with autosomal DNA that we really have only scratched the surface of what all three tests can do together.

Fisher: Yes. Absolutely. And I know, for instance, I talked to you about this, on one of your previous visits, we had a situation with my wife's uncle, where he tested Y and autosomal. And the Y gave us two matches from the same couple in Pennsylvania from the mid 1700s. And then we found like 50 autosomal matches between him and my wife's mother that confirmed it. And then we found a tax notice that mentioned what obviously was a son to this couple by the correct name. And so between the paper and the autosomal, and the Y DNA, we could confidently conclude, yes, these were the parents of my wife's third great grandparents. I mean, it's just an amazing thing, because there would have been no other way possible that we could have found these people.

Diahan: That's such an incredible and perfect example of how it's not just the DNA or the paper records or one kind of DNA test, but it's kind of all of these things together that really make our cases strong.

Fisher: Absolutely. I'm talking to Diahan Southard. She's Your DNA Guide on my 10th anniversary show. So thrilled to have you on, Diahan. Let us continue here when we return in five minutes on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show.

Segment 3 Episode 467

Host: Scott Fisher with guest Diahan Southard

Fisher: Hey, we're back on our 10th anniversary show on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. Fisher here with Diahan Southard, Your DNA Guide, as we continue our conversation about where we have been with genetic genealogy here over the last 20 years or so. And Diahan, I’m just thinking of all the remarkable discoveries we all make doing genetic genealogy. Have you got a great story that you can share of one of the things that may have surprised you a little bit?

Diahan: Ah Scott, I have so many stories.

Fisher: [Laughs] I know.

Diahan: That’s the best part of the job is that.

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: So, one that comes to mind, I think as people get more and more used to making discoveries, and more and more used to the fact that these discoveries can be made, I still find people jumping to conclusions about relationships and about decisions that their ancestors may have made and kind of casting a little bit of judgment or I don't know, it's really disheartening sometimes. And one story that kind of illustrates how we really honestly don't know what happened. Like we just we don't know, most of the time, right?

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: We can make all kinds of assumptions and calculations or whatever. But I think we should just, I mean, I apply this principle in my life all the time that just assume the best. So. I was working with a client and she was working on her family tree like everybody does take the DNA test finds out her dad's not her dad, you know all the things and she's distraught and her parents are both still living. And she's coming to me wondering, do I approach them? What should I do? And I say, well, let's see what we can find out on our own. You know, arm yourself with some information before you go launch into your parents or whatever.

Fisher: [Laughs]

Diahan: And so we do this work together because that's how we do things, right? I teach somebody how to do something, they go and do it. They come back to me. We work together.

Fisher: Yes.

Diahan: And so we were working in this relationship. And together, we discovered the identity of her father. And once it kind of all came out, she goes, I know that person. I know that guy. Like, he's like a really close family friend. And so she just, of course, assumes like everybody does that this is her mom going behind her dad's back, you know, cheating on him with this guy that they all know. And it poisoned her childhood. She just felt like all the family picnics and things they'd all done together were all just terrible, right?

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: And I was like, okay, but we don't really know what the relationship was, what happened, all the things right. And I said, I need you to get to a place where you can be calm and think about this. And then you know, it is appropriate to go and talk to your parents. And so I don't know how many weeks or months went by before I heard back from her. But essentially, she did summon up the courage and the peace of mind to go and talk with her parents. And it was beautiful, actually, because her parents had tried for years to have children and couldn't. And the couple her parents approached their family friend and said, Look, we really want a baby. And you're a part of our family. I mean, you're the closest friend we have. And would you do this for us? Would you be the father of our baby?

Fisher: Wow!

Diahan: It was actually a beautiful agreement that this family had made to create her. And there was no deception, there was none of that lying, or all the things she had thought, you know, none of it was true.

Fisher: Wow!

Diahan: It was all actually a really beautiful arrangement between these people.

Fisher: Unbelievable. And so that changed everything for her I would imagine.

Diahan: And it does. It just underscores that. We don't know the story.

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: We have these pieces, right. And we can try and put together a story. And thankfully for her there were parents still to ask, you know, most of the times you don't have the luxury of that, but you would never have thought of that scenario.

Fisher: No, absolutely not. Wow! That's crazy. You know, what I love about DNA, though, as far as genealogy goes, is, here's a situation in my line where a woman in Australia who was from New Zealand, spit in a tube, and she came up as a match to me, and she matched my Wicks line, I have some third great grandparents named Thomas Wicks and Rebecca, both from the London area. And I'd never been able to find out where Thomas was from, never found the marriage record for them didn't have the maiden name of the mother. Well, this woman had on her tree, a child named Mary Ann Wicks, and she was born about 1805, but up in the area of Oxfordshire. And I'm thinking, okay, that's like 35 miles northwest of London. And when I found her christening record, guess who the parents were? Thomas and Rebecca Wicks! And we had cross DNA matches through all these people. And as a result, I was able to find the maiden name, find the marriage, find the parents of both of these people. And now the line goes back a long ways. And we continue to get DNA matches that confirm this connection through that couple. It's unbelievable what we can do, because a woman in Australia spit in the tube!

Diahan: Wow, that's incredible.

Fisher: It really is never gets tiring and never gets boring. And I just don't ever think anybody's going to look at this stuff and go ho hum, you know?

Diahan: [Laughs] Right? That's so true.

Fisher: So where are we going, Diahan, you are Your DNA Guide. We are 20 years into this thing. We have seen the tsunami kind of peak in terms of testing, although they're still millions testing all the time. We estimated what about 30 million people have tested worldwide to this point, which helps us in so many ways, especially with ethnicity, but also with genetic genealogy and with the criminal investigations as well, where they can be used. What do you see ahead?

Diahan: It's so exciting, isn't it, to have seen all that's happened and to know that there's still so much more that we can do? I think one of the things we actually talked about earlier, which was the combination of Y, mitochondrial and autosomal DNA. I think that there's a big role for that in the future as we work towards, I guess it's like a coordination, right, because if you match someone on the autosomal DNA, again, there's so many possibilities of how you're related. But if you do or don't match on the Y or mitochondrial that also influences how you can be related to each other and either opens up or takes away a few different kinds of relationships.

Fisher: Yes.

Diahan: And I think we're under utilizing the power of that, which I think could be a big part of the future. I also think that there's power in, like you said, actually earlier, also with, you know, Scott Woodward, he had this goal of 100,000 people tested. But it turns out we didn't need that many in order to do some of the things we wanted to do. And I think that's kind of the case here in that once we reach a certain point, it's almost like we've gathered the bulk of the genetics of the modern day population in a way. And because we all come from a much smaller, older population, it's almost as if we can piece together the DNA of that older generation or generations. And once we're able to really do that and that's going to take more testing, but it will also take powerful computer databases and algorithms and computer science people. This isn't really even about genetics anymore, necessarily. It's about data, and how to manage and extrapolate from data. So we need really strong, excited data scientists to take this on, to help us use the data that we have in stronger and faster and better ways. And so, I think that's really where we're headed. It's less about the laboratory techniques, it's less about getting more people tested and it's more about doing more with the data we have.

Fisher: So, as you describe this, I'm trying to imagine what this would look like, where somehow the data is analyzed, and it says, well, your Y tells us this, and this is confirmed by this piece of your autosomal in this direction, which points us to these ancestors, that kind of thing?

Diahan: Yeah. And more than that, it's that because we want Ancestries working on what they've already said, they're working on with their side view technology and all that they're doing to parse out. Again, they're taking their current data and doing more with it, right?

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: The data is sitting there waiting for us to do more with it, essentially. So, one of the things that Ancestry has done with their side view technology has been able to take your physical DNA and decide which parts of you came from your Mom and which parts of you came from your Dad with such a high level of confidence.

Fisher: Yes.

Diahan: That if you had all of your cousins, like your first cousins tested and they were able to do that with all of your first cousins, they would actually be able to pretty confidently reconstruct the DNA of your grandparents.

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: But not just your grandparents, because that wouldn't actually do us any good if yours were the only grandparents in the database, because everybody else would still be so distantly related to them, because we're all young, right?

Fisher: Yeah.

Diahan: So we need everybody's grandparents.

Fisher: It's essentially as if we could then get two generations further back, which could help us connect to the early 1700s, say, with autosomal, right?

Diahan: That's where we're headed.

Fisher: Wow! She's Diahan Southard. She is Your DNA Guide. And, Diahan, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Diahan: Thank you, Scott.

Fisher: It's been great to chat with you, as always. I really enjoy your insight and the stories and your friendship. Thanks again.

Diahan: You're welcome and happy anniversary!

Fisher: Thank you so much. And coming up next, David Allen Lambert returns for another round of Ask Us Anything on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show.

Segment 4 Episode 467

Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert

Fisher: All right, we are back for Ask Us Anything on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com, our 10th anniversary show. And David is back. David, this question comes from Ricky in Louisiana. And he says “Guys, this is for David. Can you give me some advice on how I can obtain a coat of arms for a couple of my British ancestors and a tartan for one of my Scottish ancestors?” Interesting question. First of all, Dave, tell people what a tartan is.

David: Sure. When you see a kilt for a particular person, they’re usually wearing the tartan color for their family surname. So there's the McDonald, there's the McConnell. I mean, it doesn't always have to have a Mc in front of it, but it's for clans. So it's essentially a clan tartan. So it will be the stylized material that's woven together and then you'd wear it on a variety of things. A lady might wear it as a sash or a skirt, except for a man who will wear it as a kilt.

Fisher: Okay.

David: Here's the problem with that. Not all surnames have one tartan. You might have multiple versions or it might be in northern version or a Southard version or a county version for a particular clan. In some cases, my wife's family, maiden name Rennie, it was from the McRonald's family. Well, McRonalds was the family name probably in the middle ages. However, the Rennie family tartan if I go online to order was only created in the 1980s.

Fisher: Oh. [Laughs]

David: So it's for like, you arrive, if we wanted to say, all right, what I want a Fisher tartan and I'm Scottish or a Lambert family and I'm from Scotland, I want to tartan. You can have one designed, and with computer aided stitching, it's probably even easier. But is it applicable to a family like my wife’s who came over 100 years ago? Probably not.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: But it is that surname. Now on the flip side, a tartan can be applied to a surname, and usually you want to pick it regionally. But for a coat of arms, it's more specific. Fish, when you graduated through college and you got your diploma.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: Your brother wasn't entitled to it.

Fisher: No.

David: Your dad wasn't entitled.

Fisher: No, that’s true.

David: If you're getting a coat of arms, it's the same principle. So if you're granted a coat of arms to bear in battle or assigned by your peerage that you're being knighted, that coat of arms is only transferable to your descendants, not your siblings, not to your parents.

Fisher: Okay.

David: So, it means that if you’re not descended from the person who received it, it's like going to a flea market and buying the photograph that has your last name on the back and saying, “Oh, that must be my ancestor!

Fisher: [Laughs]

David:  It's the same principle.

Fisher: Okay.

David: But it won't stop people from going to online malls and finding these little shopping spots in Disney World and a lot of places throughout the world, where they'll let your last name will give you your coat of arms with no direct parallel to even knowing who their immigrant ancestors it, let alone knowing who in the 14th century got that coat of arms.

Fisher: Wow!

David: So with Lambert, there's dozens of coats of arms. So when I was 10 years old, I was that really punky kid that went over and said, “Can you tell me where my coat of arms comes from?” And they're like, “Well, give me some family names.” So I named like my parents, grandparents and great grandparent’s generation. And I mentioned my great grandfather. “Oh, James. It must be a family name. So here's a James Lambert got a coat of arms in 1512. It must have been passed down.”

Fisher: Oh!

David: I mean, for $19.95, I could have had a t shirt or a coffee mug. I mean, I don't know why I didn't spend the money.

Fisher: [Laughs] Oh boy!

David: But you know, in that respect, you could have coat of arms of the week.

Fisher: True.

David: But there’s a lot of serious work in coat of arms and you can get them. For instance, in England, there's the College of arms in London, and they can help you. They have a website. And there are plenty of websites online for searching for your Scottish tartan, so you can have your kilts made for real.

Fisher: [Laughs] I’ll bet. Oh my gosh! It sounds like a thriving business, David.

David: It really does. But I can tell you that I don't have a coat of arms and I'm not wearing a kilt.

Fisher: All right. Thank you very much. That's a good question. We’ve got another one coming up here when we returned with Ask Us Anything on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show in three minutes.

Segment 5 Episode 467

Host: Scott Fisher with guest David Allen Lambert

Fisher: All right back for our final segment on our 10th anniversary show on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. And David, you got the last question. And I'm getting this one from Manny in South Carolina. He says, “Fisher, looking back on 10 years of the show, what are some of the most memorable stories you have had on?” [Laughs] Boy David, where do we start with this? Because there have been so many of them.

David: Wow, I mean some of them are like surprising. Some of them are like shocking.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: Some of them make you cry. And some of them just make me laugh for days.

Fisher: Oh yeah.

David: I don't know. It's hard to pick.

Fisher: Well, if you're new to the show and you listen to the podcast, I would recommend you go to our podcast archives at ExtremeGenes.com. And go back to Episode 100, which, to me, was the most incredible story we've ever had in 10 years. And this was the one where the man found out that he was one of nine kids that had eight dads. That was quite a story. The other one that comes to mind was really recent, just a few weeks ago, the strange happenings with the exhumations of the DeWitt family in Kingston, New York. Tjerck Claessen DeWitt and his wife, Barbara, his daughter, Tasha and his son Andries, and all the things that have been happening to the people who were part of that for the last year. That's pretty nutty. Do you remember the story David, of the woman who died was exhumed for some reason, like four years later, and found in perfect condition?

David: Um hmm.

Fisher: And so, they had a second viewing for her in front of her former husband and the husband's new wife? That was a pretty good one.

David: Yeah.

Fisher: And then, I think just having like quarterback Steve Young, on the show, the Hall of Famer from the NFL, having Apolo Anton Ohno on the show, that was a highlight, Marilu Henner, shortly after you started coming on the show.

David: Oh gosh! Well, the Global Family Reunion, that's where we met her. She was great.

Fisher: That's right. She was fantastic. And of course, she has that photographic memory. She remembers everything, which is kind of insane. So those are some of the stories, but I really love finding out about just people's everyday discoveries. How about some of the eBay discoveries? We had somebody in northern England reach out, and they'd heard on the show about using eBay to find family things. And they located the medals of their great uncle who was killed in World War I on eBay. And he spent like $400 getting that material to the objections of his wife, but wound up taking it and putting it up proudly on his wall. I mean, to me, that would be an incredible find.

David: I think we need to get a kickback from eBay for all these things that we've actually had people go and search for and buy now.

Fisher: Well, that's true. It's not a real often thing. You don't find things on eBay, constantly as an individual. But collectively, we're hearing things all the time that people find, which always gives the rest of us hope. I haven't had an eBay find right now in probably two years relating to family.

David: But you're going to do it tonight.

Fisher: [Laughs]

David: When you go off the recording and find something and I'll talk about it with you next week.

Fisher: You never know how that's going to happen. So you know, those are some of the things that are fun. And I love personally hearing about other people's discoveries, what they found, how they've done it, and sharing those things with you, so that you can learn a little from it, I can learn a little from it. And we can all benefit from sharing each other's knowledge and experiences. This has been the great thing of 10 years of the show.

David: I know that the show has kept the sanity and the laughter going for a lot of people, especially during COVID. And I know people that will binge listen to like six months of the show.

Fisher: Yeah.

David: And come and say, “Oh, I love this.” And a lot of the times it's the same shows that I remember doing.

Fisher: That's it.

David: A year, two, three years ago.

Fisher: Well, David thanks so much for all your contributions. You've been on for the last eight years, which is unbelievable.

David: I enjoy every moment of it, my friend.

Fisher: All right, my friend. You have a great week, and we'll talk to you again next time.

David: Until later.

Fisher: And that is our show for this week, genies. Thank you once again for 10 years of support of Extreme Genes. We continue on. Of course, if you missed any of this episode catch the podcast on AppleMedia, ExtremeGenes.com, Spotify, TuneIn Radio. We are all over the place. Talk to you again next week. And remember, as far as everyone knows, we're a nice normal family!